Sound Profile using the Oticon TV Adapter 3.0

[DaveL]

Even having selected the “fuller” end of my new Oticon TV Adapter (the opposite end from “brighter”), the sound balance is still far too scratchy and for some content it’s painful. I make the assumption that, with the very limited selection of only five buttons for frequency response (apart from the bass) in the TV adapter, the overall response is cascaded with that for the main hearing aid.

If this assumption is correct, my question (I guess to @pvc) is, should I assume that the TV adapter always uses P1?

P1 is the General NAL-NL2 default program created by my NHS audiologist (plus P2 Speech in Noise) and so I have been reluctant to tamper with either P1 or P2. I am aware that the date will in any case have shifted, but I’m hoping that the audiology department’s policy will not object to me having created program’s 3 & 4.

Right now, P3 is a tweaked “Comfort” profile And maybe ideal for the TV adapter. Perhaps I could change the order of the programs without risk? - but it’s best when the hearing aids default to the general NAL-NL2 when the battery doors are closed.

Thank you

 

[pvc]

I think that all programs are based on P1. That is, a specific amount of gain has been Rx'd/Prescribed/Calculated to fit your hearing loss and it seems logical to keep the prescribed gain constant across all programs. Unless you have a specific reason to do otherwise.

Therefore when you create P2, it is done by Copying P1 to P2, and then you can make adjustments for P2. However, P2 is still coupled to P1 unless you uncouple them manually. Though, as a practice session, see test below.

Also you should note that the TV Adapter is not a real program. Even though, the TV Adapter can be selected by switching programs, it does not actually occupy a separate numbered program slot.

As a test; Look at the coupled indicator below. Use a dummy client Joe Blow and Simulate a fitting session to see what happens when you Click the (two coupled oo's) symbol between P1 & P2. Though, aside from this test, I suggest you leave them coupled as a default;

 

[pvc]

I have been able to dial-in (her and my) TV Adapter settings using the (END FITTING / TV ADAPTER TAB) by adjusting;

• softer or louder
• Sound quality = Fuller or Brighter
• Power Bass = Off / Low / Medium / High

It takes trial-and-error testing because you must save your settings to the hearing aids first, and then go test your streaming quality. You can't do both in one step!!

 

[pvc]

The image below is for phone streaming. But It's the same if you click the next tab (TV Adapter / EDUMIC).

 

[pvc]

the sound balance is still far too scratchy and for some content it’s painful.

• Are you using TV Adapter 3.0?
• Are you connecting the TV Adapter 3.0 to a sound source using a TOSLINK cable?
• What is your sound source?

 

[pvc]

when the battery doors are closed

Battery doors? What hearing aid models do you have?

 

[DaveL]

pvc, thanks you for your detailed replies.

I‘m using all four program slots and, having fairly severe hearing loss, you help me to appreciate that when the programs are linked, they are all based on P1, including the TV Adapter. Nevertheless, at the moment, P3 is the modified algorithm “comfort” and may better suit my TV Adapter use.

I think you are saying that if I did end up making changes to P1, these changes would automatically occur in P2, P3 an P4. So, if I reversed P1 and P3, comfort would be P1 and although perhaps perfect for the TV Adapter, would then completely screw up P2, which is Speech in Noise and is also needed.

Selecting the TV adapter is “slot 5” and so I’m very much aware that it cannot be a fifth program other than having the ability to choose one of the five ”sound quality” buttons as per your image above. (The “fuller” end button is already selected.) But, I see no possibility of associating the TV adapter with P3 instead of P1, regardless of using the program linking tool.

Yes, I’m using my new TV Adapter 3.0 with a TOSLINK cable from a TV. My previous hearing aids (without Bluetooth) gave a good sound balance with my TV Adapter 2.0 and Streamer 3.1.

When I said battery doors, I was referring to the battery compartments in the hearing aids - Oticon Engage.

 

[pvc]

Selecting the TV adapter is “slot 5”

You don't need a program slot for TV Adapter. Just set the sliders/choices how you like them and Start Streaming. That's it.

Note that depending on how you set the (M-Relative to TV slider) may determine to what degree you are listening to environmental sound from your microphones (aka the people around you), or primarily listening to sounds from your TV Streamer.

The real purpose of M relative to TV (or phone) is so that you can stay connected to environmental sounds (aka the people around you) as opposed to listening only to TV Adapter streaming sounds and ignoring the people around you.

 

[pvc]

Do you have the unlock code for these (ReBranded and Locked) NHS Oticon Engage hearing aids so that you can make changes?

 

[pvc]

You don't need a program slot for TV Adapter.

Oh, perhaps you just need to think about where TV Streaming is located when you are cycling through your programs. Well then it could be Zero, or it could be (P5 if you are using all four programs - P1, P2, P3, & P4). But if you are only using one program P1, then it can be either (P2 or Zero). Whew, maybe just think of it as a hidden program that can be reached at the (beginning or end) of your other programs.

 

[DaveL]

Hello again pvc

Perhaps my terminology is not ideal. In fact confusing. Sorry! I use all 4 “programs” and have 6 different insertion gain profiles I called “slots”. I was trying to ask you to confirm that all programs are based on P1 - I think you pointed that out earlier. In that case:-

Slot 1 - P1 NAL-NL2
Slot 2 - P2 Speech in Noise based on P1/NAL-NL2
Slot 3 - P3 Comfort based on P1/NAL-NL2
Slot 4 - P4 Speech Rescue based on P1/NAL-NL2
Slot 5 - P1 + Phone Sound Quality setting based on P1/NAL-NL2
Slot 6 - P1 + TV Adapter Sound Quality setting based on P1/NAL-NL2

So unfortunately, if based on P1 and not P3, for me the TV Adapter sound profile is unsatisfactory. Even at the “Fuller” end setting, it only attenuates the very highest frequencies by 6dB. Consequently, with my limited hearing range, even that amount of attenuation is reduced and simply enough for me. This is regardless of whether or not I change the microphone sensitivity in the hearing aids.

I don’t want to tamper with my audiologists settings for P1 and P2, at least until I’ve had my follow-up appointment.

I am still experimenting with P4 but hoping that, when out and about, P4 will give good speech clarity and be my first choice for most of the time. P1 delivers a very high insertion gain up to 8kHz and is a wasted resource for me - I don’t hear beyond 5kHz At best. I consider it’s far better to accept the modified tonal quality caused by using Speech Rescue and translate the high frequency inaudible energy content to a lower frequency that’s within my audible range, thereby boosting speech clarity. And reduce the ”scratchy” content as a bonus.

So far it appears to be successful, the only problem I’ve found with P4 is that, when my dog whines at something like 5kHz, on P1 I could scarcely hear it whereas on P4, its frequency is translated down to within my audible range and is really loud.

Another big bonus with my P4 (obviously dependent on settings) seems to be that feedback (when any object moves near to the hearing aids) is much reduced with my P4 but an annoyance with P1. I am aware that there are feedback settings and that the earpiece also makes a difference. I‘m using power domes that fit fully within my ear canal.

 

[pvc]

Sorry, I'm a little lost about your slots. There are only four programs. How did you create two extra programs/slots??

I think that your settings for (END FITTING / Accessories) are related to a specific Accessory, not a Program.

1. PHONE
2. TV ADAPTER

Do you know how to use the Simulate feature? You can create a dummy client Joe Blow, Male, 1/1/1950, click some points (any points) on his Audiogram, then copy those points to the other side/ear, and proceed in Simulate mode. Connection to hearing aids is not required so you can proceed without worrying about changing anything.

Practice using the fitting software:​

It is difficult or impossible to get any practice using the fitting software without selecting a real client and connecting to your hearing aids to use the real hearing aid settings. Look for a Simulate or Training feature that may be provided in some manufacturer’s fitting software. Oticon Genie2, ReSound’s SmartFit, others?, have a Simulate feature that allows you to try various settings in a simulation mode.

 

[pvc]

Also, my assumption is that you are self programming your (ReBranded and Locked) NHS Oticon Engage hearing aids.
But I don't know for sure???

 

[DaveL]

I was hoping you wouldn’t pick me up again on terminology pvc. Please appreciate that I am already using Genie 2 and have configured 6 different insertion gain profiles. I can select any one of them using the buttons on the hearing aids. Please look at my list of 6 slots, it only uses 4 programs! The insertion gain versus frequency delivered by slot 1 - General NAL-NL2 has, for example, a different insertion gain versus frequency to slot 6 where General NAL-NL2 is used together with changes to the TV Adapter Sound Quality settings.

My query to you and the forum was to hopefully find a way to associate the TV Adapter with P3 (Comfort) instead of P1. I have now concluded that this is not possible. I have also concluded from the Genie 2 help file that P1 is always a “General” program and cannot have its order changed to become “Comfort”. In conclusion, therefore, it appears that if I manually changed all the gain settings in P1 to get my preferred TV Adapter profile, this would screw up the other programs and means it looks like the only way to get my preferred sound balance with the TV Adapter would be to change the frequency response of the audio input signal. I shall car park doing that for the time being.

More interesting for me now is to learn about the experience/best settings/success that others and hopefully you have had in optimising Speech Rescue. As I said in post #11, Speech Rescue has benefits and want P4 to become my default go-to program. However, I have yet to learn how SPLogram and Audiological views can be used to fine-tune the settings.

Oh yes, I forgot to confirm that I did use the unlock code to enable the selection of my NHS Oticon Engage hearing aids in Genie 2.

 

[pvc]

I was hoping you wouldn’t pick me up again on terminology pvc

Sorry; I didn't mean to do that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You Audi will only know that the hearing aid setting were changed because the DateTimeStamp will mismatch. He/she will not know what has changed (and will not trust your changes)! Instead of investigating what has changed, your Audi will revert back to the Audi database settings.

The problem with frequency shifting is you need a good lower range to shift the high frequencies into. Sometimes it can work well with some hearing losses. But sometimes not. I think that you can experiment with the source or target range, or maybe even both. I don't follow frequency shifting closely. So you will know more than me.

Sorry, I don't get your 6 slots? Try this. Simulate Joe Blow.

• Give Joe a quickie made-up audiogram.
• Setup your hearing aid models and Acoustics.
• Go to fitting, Take a Snipping Tool clip of the Gain Controls. That is Joe's Rx/Prescription for his hearing loss as defined by his Audiogram.
• Go to END FITTING and set your TV Adapter to something ridiculous like accessory sliders all to the far left

Now add a second Program P2 for Speech in Noise. Compare the Gain Controls to P1. A little different, right?
Proceed to END FITTING. Your accessory sliders are still all the way left! They will remain all the way left for all programs.
You can experiment by changing accessory sliders again, for either P1 or P2. You cannot have different accessory settings for each program.
Things that can be changed in END FITTING is global and unrelated to Programs or slots?

 

[DaveL]

PVC, you had pointed out to me previously that the DateTimeStamp will be a giveaway to the Audi that I have changed the settings. I don’t know how she will react, I don’t own my hearing aids, they are on loan to me free-of-charge from the NHS. This is why I don’t want to change P1 or P2 and restrict myself to changes in P3 and P4. Fingers crossed she won’t throw her toys out of the pram.

I’m not sure I understand your point about the Joe Blow simulation. The accessory sliders only in-circuit for the accessories and as I said in #14, when using the accessories, so far as I can determine are keyed exclusively to P1. And the slider settings for the phone are definitely independent from those set for the TV Adapter.

PS, with the Sound Quality slider on the far left, this is only -6dB at the highest frequency - less than this within my hearing spectrum. I need more HF attenuation for a balanced sound.

 

[pvc]

I don’t know how she will react, I don’t own my hearing aids, they are on loan to me free-of-charge from the NHS

Forget about her. You are the one with the disability.

This is why I don’t want to change P1 or P2 and restrict myself to changes in P3 and P4. Fingers crossed she won’t throw her toys out of the pram.

It doesn't matter if you limit your changes to unused programs!!!. Repeat, She will not know what was changed. She will not investigate what changed. She will not trust the changed settings. She will revert back to the Audi database settings after giving you that look.

I’m not sure I understand your point about the Joe Blow simulation. The accessory sliders only in-circuit for the accessories and as I said in #14, when using the accessories, so far as I can determine are keyed exclusively to P1.

No, exclusively to the Accessory!!!

And the slider settings for the phone are definitely independent from those set for the TV Adapter.

Yes, exclusively to the Accessory!!!

PS, with the Sound Quality slider on the far left, this is only -6dB at the highest frequency - less than this within my hearing spectrum. I need more HF attenuation for a balanced sound.

Yes, ridiculous isn't it? It doesn't matter. It's a simulation. I am trying to teach you how to perform a simulated fitting so that you can learn. Nothing gets changed in a Simulated Session! No hearing aids are ever connected in a Simulated Session!

 

[pvc]

Besides; NHS is not doing you any great-or-marvelous favors. The Oticon Opn's are old, 2016, and four generations back. Here's a clip from a DIY School Hearing Aids (v2.2) PDF File nmamed (Big-5 Platforms/New Chips).

William DeMant/Oticon, Bernafon, Philips, Sonic

2024-Q1	Sirius	2024-Q1 Intent miniRITE; new Lithium-ion charger technology - has contacts - is not inductive charging, new miniFit Detect speakers - not miniFit speakers
2020-Q4	Polaris	2023-Q1 Real miniRITE R, miniRITE T, miniBTE R, miniBTE T 2022-Q3 Own IIC, CIC, ITC, ITE-HS, ITE-FS 2022-Q2 Zircon miniRITE R, miniRITE T, miniBTE R, miniBTE T 2022-Q2 More miniBTE R, miniBTE T 2020-Q4 More miniRITE R, miniRITE T
2019-Q1	Velox S *	2020-Q2 Ruby, miniRITE, miniRITE T, miniRITE R, BTE, BTE Power Plus 2019-Q2 Xceed, Xceed Play 2019-Q1 Opn S, Opn-Play
2016-Q2	Velox *	2018-Q4 Siya 2017-Q2 Opn ZPower Rechargeable miniRITE 2016-Q2 Opn
2015-Q1	Inium Sense	Alta2, Nera2, Ria2, Dynamo
2013-Q?	Inium	Alta, Nera, Ria
2010-Q1	RISE2	Agil, Acto, Chili
2007-Q2	RISE	Vigo, Epoq

*=Firmware Update requires Hi Pro