Beltone VS. Phonak

There you go again… blogging about nothing when you should be spending that time with your nose buried in textbooks. Don’t pretend to give advice to persons with hearing impairment when you don’t know the difference between critical bands and frequency bands. I've been running ANSI an insitu tests on every hearing aid I've encountered for the past 15 years. If you knew how to objectively test hearing aids, you would understand there are obvious objective differences... yours is simply opinion. I'm also the only audiologist I've ever known who worked at a Miracle Ear (less than 4 months before I bolted from that sham & I could tell you some unbelievable stories).
1. How do auditory filters and masking affect hearing aid outcomes?
2. How does middle ear impedance affect upward spread of masking, gain requirements, acoustic feedback and the application of electroacoustic parameters such as directional microphone roll-off and expansion?
3. How can acoustic reflex thresholds be implemented to ensure a more responsible hearing aid fitting?
4. Do three identical hearing losses require identical hearing aid programming regardless of whether the loss is due to viral labyrinthitis, acoustic trauma, or Meniere’s?
5. How does degree of loss affect compression kneepoint settings?
6. Should Loudness Discomfort Levels (LDSs) alter attack and/or release compression settings?
7. Should the absence of Otoacoustic Emissions be considered when establishing compression kneepoint and compression ratio settings? If so, how?
8. How do binaural squelch and binaural summation differ, and how do they apply to choosing and programming hearing aid parameters? Can anyone wearing hearing aids benefit from these phenomena?
9. Has scientific research demonstrated reliable aided benefit from transcranial CROS systems?
10. How much threshold asymmetry (and at what frequencies) warrant referral to an otolaryngologist?
11. What study provides test/retest range of variability data for any speech discrimination score?
12. What’s the acceptable tolerance for ANSI S3.22-2003 HFA-OSPL 90?
13. How is HFA-FOG determined?
14. When are EIN Equivalent Input Noise standards of little/no value during a responsible hearing aid fitting?
15. How can Speech In Noise tests be properly utilized to select and program hearing aid parameters?
16. What are the primary differences between NAL-NL1, DSL-m(IO), CAM2 & NAL-NL2? When is one particular prescriptive rationale most likely to be chosen and why?
17. When should ultra-high frequencies (>8kHz) be measured?

These are just a couple random questions off the top of my head that probably weren’t covered in your simpleton’s hearing aid sales exam manual. If I cared to spend the time, I could probably ask you nearly 1000 similar questions WHICH SHOULD ALL BE BASIC KNOWLEDGE CONSIDERING YOUR HEARING AID SALES JOB. If you can’t readily answer these questions (I’ll say it again), you need to quit trying to give people hearing aid advice and start reading some textbooks. You’re simply wasting your time, their time, my time, and giving IGNORANT advice to people who don't know any better. If you can even answer half correctly, I'll give you 50 more. Freakin' impostors! You don't even know the questions let alone the answers.
 
Actually, if you could "think" your way above functional illiteracy, you wouldn't be in this state of oblivion to begin with. Stop blogging... start studying. I feel badly for people trusting you with their hearing healthcare needs. I'm outta here!
 
Audiologist said:
Actually, if you could "think" your way above functional illiteracy, you wouldn't be in this state of oblivion to begin with. Stop blogging... start studying. I feel badly for people trusting you with their hearing healthcare needs. I'm outta here!
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Audiologist,

Very impressive bit of knowledge, but I would hope you would have committed all this to memory over doing the same thing for the last 15 years, I would bet a HIS specialist would also amassed an equally impressive bit of knowledge with 15 years of experience too. However, I hope your not answering my post because I'm not a HIS and I don't work at Costco. I just have found your arrogance and self righteousness to be kind of sickening. I also think Rasmus hit the nail on the head with his comment. As I said previously you keep sticking your foot in your mouth with various comments and I will stay with my simple statement: that there are good and bad audiologist as well as good and bad HIS. As you have continuously said" you only have a 20% chance of getting your HA's programmed correctly," and that must go for audiologist as well as HIS, so it doesn't matter which one you go to you only have a 1 in 5 chance coming out with HA's set up correctly. However, if you go to Costco, you are only going to spend about half what you would charge and you would have 90 days to decide if you want to keep the aids or get ALL your money back. You obviously seem to know what your doing or at least think you do, although, with your attitude you are probably one of those audiologist who think they are so far advanced over their fellow audiologist that they think they can charge several thousand dollars more than their competition because they think they are so good. Enough said!
 
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Audiologist said:
There you go again… blogging about nothing when you should be spending that time with your nose buried in textbooks. Don’t pretend to give advice to persons with hearing impairment when you don’t know the difference between critical bands and frequency bands. I've been running ANSI an insitu tests on every hearing aid I've encountered for the past 15 years. If you knew how to objectively test hearing aids, you would understand there are obvious objective differences... yours is simply opinion. I'm also the only audiologist I've ever known who worked at a Miracle Ear (less than 4 months before I bolted from that sham & I could tell you some unbelievable stories).
1. How do auditory filters and masking affect hearing aid outcomes?
2. How does middle ear impedance affect upward spread of masking, gain requirements, acoustic feedback and the application of electroacoustic parameters such as directional microphone roll-off and expansion?
3. How can acoustic reflex thresholds be implemented to ensure a more responsible hearing aid fitting?
4. Do three identical hearing losses require identical hearing aid programming regardless of whether the loss is due to viral labyrinthitis, acoustic trauma, or Meniere’s?
5. How does degree of loss affect compression kneepoint settings?
6. Should Loudness Discomfort Levels (LDSs) alter attack and/or release compression settings?
7. Should the absence of Otoacoustic Emissions be considered when establishing compression kneepoint and compression ratio settings? If so, how?
8. How do binaural squelch and binaural summation differ, and how do they apply to choosing and programming hearing aid parameters? Can anyone wearing hearing aids benefit from these phenomena?
9. Has scientific research demonstrated reliable aided benefit from transcranial CROS systems?
10. How much threshold asymmetry (and at what frequencies) warrant referral to an otolaryngologist?
11. What study provides test/retest range of variability data for any speech discrimination score?
12. What’s the acceptable tolerance for ANSI S3.22-2003 HFA-OSPL 90?
13. How is HFA-FOG determined?
14. When are EIN Equivalent Input Noise standards of little/no value during a responsible hearing aid fitting?
15. How can Speech In Noise tests be properly utilized to select and program hearing aid parameters?
16. What are the primary differences between NAL-NL1, DSL-m(IO), CAM2 & NAL-NL2? When is one particular prescriptive rationale most likely to be chosen and why?
17. When should ultra-high frequencies (>8kHz) be measured?

These are just a couple random questions off the top of my head that probably weren’t covered in your simpleton’s hearing aid sales exam manual. If I cared to spend the time, I could probably ask you nearly 1000 similar questions WHICH SHOULD ALL BE BASIC KNOWLEDGE CONSIDERING YOUR HEARING AID SALES JOB. If you can’t readily answer these questions (I’ll say it again), you need to quit trying to give people hearing aid advice and start reading some textbooks. You’re simply wasting your time, their time, my time, and giving IGNORANT advice to people who don't know any better. If you can even answer half correctly, I'll give you 50 more. Freakin' impostors! You don't even know the questions let alone the answers.
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First of all, I don't believe for one second that these questions came off the top of your head. Since you seem to be fond of telling people to study textbooks, I'm guessing that you cribbed the questions from someone else's work.

Second, most of the topics you brought up are very esoteric and have little or no relevance to actual, real-life dispensing of modern hearing aids. The answers to your questions will not make or break any hearing aid fitting.

Simply put, the vast majority of people seeking amplification have straightforward sensorineural hearing loss and will be adequately served by a hearing instrument specialist who has the appropriate training and experience. Going to an audiologist in those cases would be overkill. Just like going to an ophthalmologist for an optical prescription.

I don't know why you have such animosity toward other hearing professionals, but you should consider anger management training. You remind me of those surgeons we sometimes read about in the news who scream and throw temper tantrums in the operating room because they think they're such hot shots and no one is willing to confront them about their behavior.
 
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Rasmus,
You've got to admit it's an impressive list, but I'm with you in believing he was pouring over the textbooks to come up with the list, since it took him a week to respond.

My mother worked with a surgeon who despite finding his cancer early, would not let anyone operate on him because he felt no one, not even his own son was capable of operating on him, so he died. Does sound like something our audiologist friend would do, doesn't it!
 
seb said:
Rasmus,
You've got to admit it's an impressive list, but I'm with you in believing he was pouring over the textbooks to come up with the list, since it took him a week to respond.
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seb, I know the list looks impressive because of the technical jargon, but almost none of it matters in real life. For example, question number 6 about attack and release times. What manufacturer's software allows you to change this in any direct manner? None. These topics will have little or no impact on the practitioner who's trying to fit a hearing aid.
 
rasmus_braun said:
seb, I know the list looks impressive because of the technical jargon, but almost none of it matters in real life. For example, question number 6 about attack and release times. What manufacturer's software allows you to change this in any direct manner? None. These topics will have little or no impact on the practitioner who's trying to fit a hearing aid.
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To tell you the truth, I didn't even read his list, just scanned over it. I figured he was just trying to impress us with his knowledge and overblown ego. The sad part is that he and others like him are a large part of the problem with our nations healthcare industry: they think they have a right to charge whatever they want and they feel they should be the only people allowed to fit HA's because of going to college for 9 years. I have to do a search of where he is located and what parking lot he's working in, because I think with his ego he would have trouble getting his head through the door, at least when he asks his patients "how does that sound?" They will know because they will be out in the real world, not in a quiet office. Could you imagine going to this guy for your hearing needs? I can't!

An old family friend has had his share of these types of audiologists and has a drawer full of hearing aids to prove it,and after spending a ton of money over the years on HA's, I told him to go to one particular Costco and see if this guy(HIS) could help him out and after going, he called me to say thank you and said this guy got him hearing better than he had in years!
 
Beware hearing aid salesmen in labcoats!!!

Yup!!! You did't even know the questions let alone the answers. I'm tired of watching 80% of you grossly misfit hearing aids. It is simply unethical and sad that you untrained, unqualified salesmen are legally allowed to affect someone's hearing. You think these questions are esoteric and unrelated to the real world use of amplification? That's my point! You call it arrogance. Of course you're going to say it's esoteric, irrelevant, and arrogant because you don't simply don't know the facts... you don't know the difference. There's nothing else you could say. You cry "arrogant." I call it educated and experienced enough to see that you're too ignorant to realize your ignorance. This is my last entry as you apparently have no interest in science based skill sets within your own profession. ANYONE OUT THERE WITH HEARING LOSS:
1. FIND A DOCTOR OF AUDIOLOGY
2. DO NOT BE FOOLED BY UNTRAINED HEARING AID SALESMAN IN LABCOATS
3. NEVER PURCHASE FROM A FRANCHISE (Beltone, Miracle Ear, Audibel)
4. MAKE SURE THE AUDIOLOGIST PERFORMS "REAL EAR MEASURES"
5 JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN HEAR BETTER WITH A PIECE OF CRAP HEARING AID... IT'S STILL A PIECE OF CRAP HEARING AID
6 GOOD LUCK. THE BLOGGERS ON THIS SITE SHOULD GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF WHAT YOU'RE LIKELY TO ENCOUNTER
7 BY LAW, YOU HAVE AT LEAST 30 DAYS TO RETURN YOUR AIDS FOR A REFUND. YOU CAN SIMPLY GO SOMEWHERE ELSE
 
Audiologist said:
Yup!!! You did't even know the questions let alone the answers. I'm tired of watching 80% of you grossly misfit hearing aids. It is simply unethical and sad that you untrained, unqualified salesmen are legally allowed to affect someone's hearing. You think these questions are esoteric and unrelated to the real world use of amplification? That's my point! You call it arrogance. Of course you're going to say it's esoteric, irrelevant, and arrogant because you don't simply don't know the facts... you don't know the difference. There's nothing else you could say. You cry "arrogant." I call it educated and experienced enough to see that you're too ignorant to realize your ignorance. This is my last entry as you apparently have no interest in science based skill sets within your own profession. ANYONE OUT THERE WITH HEARING LOSS:
1. FIND A DOCTOR OF AUDIOLOGY
2. DO NOT BE FOOLED BY UNTRAINED HEARING AID SALESMAN IN LABCOATS
3. NEVER PURCHASE FROM A FRANCHISE (Beltone, Miracle Ear, Audibel)
4. MAKE SURE THE AUDIOLOGIST PERFORMS "REAL EAR MEASURES"
5 JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN HEAR BETTER WITH A PIECE OF CRAP HEARING AID... IT'S STILL A PIECE OF CRAP HEARING AID
6 GOOD LUCK. THE BLOGGERS ON THIS SITE SHOULD GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF WHAT YOU'RE LIKELY TO ENCOUNTER
7 BY LAW, YOU HAVE AT LEAST 30 DAYS TO RETURN YOUR AIDS FOR A REFUND. YOU CAN SIMPLY GO SOMEWHERE ELSE
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You may be a truly gifted and caring audiologist, but even you make mistakes and show your ignorance. I have no issues with audiologist as a whole as long as they know what they are doing, leave the used car salesmen approach at home and don't gouge their clients.

You say, "you are tired of watching 80% of you( I guess HIS?) grossly misfit hearing aids." I want to know where and what published article or study you are getting your facts from or is this based again on your personal opinion regarding the 80% being misfit and how your theory is only HIS are responsible for misfitting HA's because they aren't university trained. Of the three studies I have seen on the subject they found no statistical difference between audiologist and HIS with regard to properly fitting hearing aids.

Regarding #4 This should happen without even asking, however, from this as well as other hearing aid sites, it isn't done with every patient and audiologists who are in your opinion the best trained fail to do this test on a good number of their patients and only run it if the patient has problems. On the "Hearing Aid Forums" one audiologist said they never perform it because the equipment is "to costly and todays hearing aid programming software runs checks on the settings constantly." So obviously, this audiologist didn't graduate from the school you went to. And to even mention it here, you obviously know that most of your brethren don't run it, but wait, they are a "UNIVERSITY TRAINED" and must of been taught that this is standard operating procedure and must be done with each and every patient.

Regarding #7, There is NO FEDERAL LAW REQUIRING THIS and you ONLY HAVE 30 DAYS IN THOSE STATES THAT MANDATE IT BY LAW! and 19 states have no statutes on their books! I included the list earlier in the thread listing those states that don't have ANY TRIAL statute on the books and three states: Minnesota, New York and Vermont that have a 45 day trial period mandated by law. However, at Costco and Sam's Club you get a 90 day trial and 100% of your money back if you return the HA's. Unfortunately, through my reading on this and several other hearing aid sites I find people seem to have more problems with an audiologist not being able to get their hearing aids right than with a hearing instrument specialist.

Regarding all of your posts here , they seem to be based on personal opinion and and misinformation rather than scientific fact, which you claim to be a follower of. For instance, under what study did you find that Siemens, Starkey and Phonak manufacture the best hearing aids on the market? Do you have a study you can share with us saying they are the best or is these the HA's you sell and are therefore the best in your opinion? Since Beltone is made by Resound and Miracle Ear is rebranded Siemens (one of the best in your opinion) hearing aids then how can they also be "A PIECE OF CRAP HEARING AID" too? Finally, while you were working toward your audiology degree how much of the 4-5 years where spent fitting hearing aids and how much have you learned in the 15 years you have been a practicing audiologist?

Back to the One last tidbit you have preached over and over and must be remembered is: " YOU ONLY HAVE A 20% CHANCE OF GETTING HEARING AIDS THAT ARE PROPERLY PROGRAMMED TO YOUR HEARING LOSS " and based on the number of people with hearing loss and hearing aids and the number of audiologists and HIS, this 20% is probably shared on a fairly equal basis by the two fitters. So, if this is the case, it doesn't make sense to pay an audiologist $6,000 for a pair of hearing aids when they can go to someplace like Costco and get the same HA's for $3,000 and have the same odds of coming out with hearing aids that are correctly set for their hearing loss. Because after all, $6,000 is a lot of money to have stashed in a drawer somewhere!

If this is truly your last post I want to say I will miss you, you have been very entertaining and even a little scary with your various tirades( C-O-S-T-C-O -----C-O-S-T-C-O ) comes to mind which showed that you may be a little unstable, but if this is it, Good bye audiologist, we will miss you!
 
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Audiologist said:
Yup!!! You did't even know the questions let alone the answers. I'm tired of watching 80% of you grossly misfit hearing aids. It is simply unethical and sad that you untrained, unqualified salesmen are legally allowed to affect someone's hearing. You think these questions are esoteric and unrelated to the real world use of amplification? That's my point! You call it arrogance. Of course you're going to say it's esoteric, irrelevant, and arrogant because you don't simply don't know the facts... you don't know the difference. There's nothing else you could say. You cry "arrogant." I call it educated and experienced enough to see that you're too ignorant to realize your ignorance. This is my last entry as you apparently have no interest in science based skill sets within your own profession. ANYONE OUT THERE WITH HEARING LOSS:
1. FIND A DOCTOR OF AUDIOLOGY
2. DO NOT BE FOOLED BY UNTRAINED HEARING AID SALESMAN IN LABCOATS
3. NEVER PURCHASE FROM A FRANCHISE (Beltone, Miracle Ear, Audibel)
4. MAKE SURE THE AUDIOLOGIST PERFORMS "REAL EAR MEASURES"
5 JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN HEAR BETTER WITH A PIECE OF CRAP HEARING AID... IT'S STILL A PIECE OF CRAP HEARING AID
6 GOOD LUCK. THE BLOGGERS ON THIS SITE SHOULD GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF WHAT YOU'RE LIKELY TO ENCOUNTER
7 BY LAW, YOU HAVE AT LEAST 30 DAYS TO RETURN YOUR AIDS FOR A REFUND. YOU CAN SIMPLY GO SOMEWHERE ELSE
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Audiologist, if this is your last post, then I'm thankful. You felt the need to flaunt your intelligence by creating a list of obscure questions which have no practical value, and then you accused people of not knowing the questions or answers. That's truly the height of arrogance. I'm not a hearing aid salesperson, so your rants and raves were misdirected.

Also, where's the scientific evidence to support your claim that 80 percent of all hearing aids are "grossly misfit"? That's just nonsense, as the whole industry would have collapsed by now.

Regarding #4, even if you perform real ear measurement in your office and adjust the gain to meet prescriptive targets, that doesn't mean the patient will be able to tolerate the fitting out in the real world. Depending on the environment they're in, it may be unbearably loud. REM is not a magic bullet.

As for #5, it doesn't matter what your favorite brands are. The user should be the judge of a hearing aid. If it helps improve their hearing, then it's not "a piece of crap" to them.
 
I did a little bit of homework to dissect the similarities and differences between the two products you enquired about: Beltone Promise 9 and the Phonak Naida CRT.

The truth is that both are good hearing aids with similar technologies. I prefer the Phonak Naida CRT, but that preference comes from having a lot more experience in fitting Phonak hearing aids.


The biggest difference between brands isn't in the hardware, in-fact a lot of the manufacturers purchase the inside of their hearing aids through the same supplier. The bigger difference is in the software. Software can be very important for the user of a Smartphone, but for a hearing aid wearer it's not that important. Let's face it, your not given the programmer and software to adjust the computer chip that controls how your hearing aid amplifies.
On the other hand, your hearing professional is given the ability to control the hearing aids that you purchase. Hearing Aid manufacturers offer flexible returns and they fight very hard to ensure they minimize how many returns they receive by trying to do as much of the programming of their products as they can. All the new hearing aids use automatic programming, as soon as your hearing professional connects hearing aids to your file in the computer the software does a first fitting. It's surprising how good Phonak has become at fitting hearing aids, as I often don't have to change a thing. With other manufacturers I often have to tweak the settings a little bit more to get my client happy.
A good hearing professional can make a difference, but for all of you tech savvy baby boomers out there, just remember that as technology keeps improving, there's less and less of a need for someone to hold your hand through the process. Have you ever seen a toddler interact with an iPad?
I'm probably a little bit biased however…. I do sell hearing aids online.
Buy Hearing Aids & Accessories Online | Clearly Hearing
 
Doing your homework for hearing aids!

Reading over some of these past comments also makes me realize that it takes a great deal of research when it comes to finding the best or most suited hearing aid. I think when you have two types of manufacturers or pieces of technology, the best deal for us might just be to consider the worst possible case scenarios for each. Just focusing on the benefits of each will sort of cloud our vision when it comes to realizing the true potential. I know that my grandfather recently tried out a 60-day evaluation for hearing aids that seemed to grant him some stress relief because he was able to evaluate what he wanted before he made a huge final decision. My grandfather evaluated his hearing aids at the following website: Advanced Hearing Technologies - Wanted: People For Hearing Aids Trial

Thanks,
John Drummond
Hearing Aid Researcher
 
ureout said:
thx for your answer but why would you stay away from Beltone....anything specific?
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Beltone is owned by resound. Your going to pay the premium for a franchise. Go with the Phonak or even a resound from a private audiologist.
 
Audiologist said:
You don't have to be an audiologist to work at Costco. Hearing aid salesmen that work there are not required to have a high school diploma and must only pass a very, very simple BASIC skills test to get their sales license. Hmm... let's see a hearing doctor with 9 years of college training or a hearing aid salesman with a GED??? Costco offers "Free Hearing Tests*." The asterisk says, "for hearing aid purposes only" because hearing aid salesmen cannot perform a comprehensive hearing test. They can SCREEN hearing for hearing aid purposes only. The salesman cannot charge for their so called "test" nor can they bill your insurance company. THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO DO A MEDICAL OR EVEN A COMPREHENSIVE HEARING EVALUATION. The hearing aid salesman can't legally even remove wax from your ear. Get your hearing SCREENED at Costco. Let the salesman take impressions of your wax filled ears. Pick up a bag of dog food on your way out, and in two weeks trust your hearing to a salesman with no university training or degree. The sad thing is that Granny can hear better with a junk hearing aid or even a nice hearing aid poorly programmed by an idiot. By the way, research repeatedly demonstrates that 80% of all hearing aids are grossly misfit, underamplifying some sounds while overamplifying other sounds. Hmm... I suppose Granny should also get her false teeth from a denture salesman rather than a university trained dentist, her eyeglasses from an eyeglass salesman rather than an optometrist. Costco or not, the fact that hearing aid salesmen even exist is a joke. Granny, I hope you're listening. Before you go anywhere for a hearing aid evaluation call ahead to ensure you'll be seeing a university trained professional. Not only should the audiologist have a doctorate degree, but he/she should also be board certified by the American Speech, Language and Hearing Association. Hearing aid salesmen do not belong in health care.
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You are an angry person. WHY do audiologists also work for Costco?
 
rasmus_braun said:
Audiologist, for someone who espouses the virtues of science, your post is shockingly ignorant.
What evidence do you have that Siemens, Starkey, and Phonak are the "top" manufacturers. This is just your personal opinion. There are plenty of other hearing professionals who would disagree with you.
Beltone hearing aids are made by ReSound, arguably one of the "top" manufacturers. And Miracle Ear sells rebranded Siemens instruments. Calling them "junk" is outrageous.
Your Costco rant leaves me speechless. I hate to say it, but you seem like a nutcase.
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Yep, what goes around comes around. Karma can take a decade. Hahahaha. Well, I thought it was funny. :p

Truth be told; I agree with this assessment from someone very knowledgeable about the industry.
Sorry, about the digression. I won't mention forum etiquette again. :cool:
 
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